Baseball

[misplaced validity]

(10-26-2015 09:30 AM)Above the Title Wrote:  I never said whether he should have consequences.

My bad. You pointing out he hasn't received consequences and probably wouldn't seemed to imply you thought he should, but that may not have been your intent and I can recognize that.

Quote:If you don't see how the KKK being classified as a hate group changes the conversation, I have nothing else to add.

In terms of the law and "free speech," it doesn't change the conversation. The 1992 Supreme Court ruling in R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul protects hate speech, but also clearly separated speech from action. Whether or not it's the case, it feels like some of you are acting like I am making insane points or something. The Washington Post even ran a blog earlier this year about "hate speech" being protected under the First Amendment:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volo...amendment/

Quote:And honestly, sometimes people just want to fucking talk about baseball.

Then do it. I didn't bring up this line of conversation, and anyone could make a post to turn the discussion back to baseball.

[Above the Title]

Mets will not re-sign Murphy and Cespedes, right? How about Harvey (since he so badly wants to be a Yankee)? With deGrom, Syndergaard, Matz, and Weaver, maybe the Mets don't even need him.

[Dr.ciski77]

Re: your friend in that post you linked. How do you respect a "belief" that you know first-hand to be wrong (as in, literally incorrect and misinformed) on something that affects you and your personhood so directly? How do you respect his calling being gay a lifestyle (which is one of the most common misconceptions anti-gay bigots bring up to justify their opinion) like being gay means spending 6 months a year in Switzerland or dining out on the weekend?

Anyway, I think I'm out. I just don't want to be part of a discussion where BLM gets compared to the KKK on the basis of "free speech."

[misplaced validity]

(10-26-2015 10:32 AM)Dr.ciski77 Wrote:  Re: your friend in that post you linked. How do you respect a "belief" that you know first-hand to be wrong (as in, literally incorrect and misinformed) on something that affects you and your personhood so directly? How do you respect his calling being gay a lifestyle (which is one of the most common misconceptions anti-gay bigots bring up to justify their opinion) like being gay means spending 6 months a year in Switzerland or dining out on the weekend?

Anyway, I think I'm out. I just don't want to be part of a discussion where BLM gets compared to the KKK on the basis of "free speech."

I read an interview with Jewel the other day in which she spoke about her parents (her mom abandoned them and her dad became an abusive alcoholic), and I think it provides a perfect response to your questions:

Quote:"I don’t perceive either of my parents to be bad people. I don’t think there’s really a black and white. People make decisions from whatever brought them in their lives to where they’re at."

[venom1976]

Well, that all took off.

Look, it's sports. There's hardly any good reason to root for anyone. I root year after year for the "New York Mets", even though hardly any of them are actually from New York and the group of players I root for changes every year based on the whims of a small group of millionaires whose prime goal is to get even richer by getting people much poorer than them to spend money on tickets, concessions and merchandise. Disliking a player and the team he is on (today) because of his politics is one of the more rational reasons to pick a side that I can think of.

I don't think Murphy is fundamentally a bad guy. He, like millions of people in this country, is just trapped in a way of thinking. It really is a trap - he thinks that to believe in God/Jesus is to believe that homosexuality is a sin, and if you stop believing the latter, you can't believe in the former, and to not believe the former is to go to hell. I don't think penalizing him financially is the path to making him reconsider, but he'll never rethink it unless he faces some disapproval from someone. Why can't the fans be that someone?

[pvdk]

I don't think whether you're a bad guy or not really matters. It's what your words represent and he's using his voice to validate those that believe it's okay to discriminate based on religion. I don't justify people's "traps" because we're at a different time where enough hand holding and enough stories are out there to steer people into a certain way of thinking. If some of the most hateful people can change their opinions and see the light, I don't see why he or many others can't. And that's without even getting into the obvious argument of the number of things he's probably done that's against his religion.

I don't think dropping him is necessarily the answer but the team and its managers need to hold him accountable in some way.

[Above the Title]

And, you know what, sometimes people are just hypocrites. We are all complex, and the somewhat arbitrary rules we create for ourselves can have exceptions. I think Candace Cameron is also a bigot, but I am so nostalgic about "Full House" that I have created a rationale whereby in my mind, Cameron and DJ Tanner are two completely different people, and I am supporting the revival of the show without supporting her. Of course that is not true, and she will get money from me watching it, and she got money when I bought her book to get into a book signing, and she gets a syndication check every time I watch the show on cable. It is harder with team sports because it's a group of people rather than one individual, and if we take the Mets as an example, I think what venom was alluding to above is that even those fans supremely upset by what Murphy said (and it's justifiable, IMO) don't want to penalize the entire team. And maybe these very same people feel differently about, say, the Steelers being penalized as a whole for continuing to employ Ben Roethlisberger. Or maybe they feel the same. I don't think the line is consistent for everybody, and I think we all create narratives in our heads to support or not support whom and what we want.

[misplaced validity]

(10-27-2015 11:40 PM)Above the Title Wrote:  And, you know what, sometimes people are just hypocrites. We are all complex, and the somewhat arbitrary rules we create for ourselves can have exceptions. I think Candace Cameron is also a bigot, but I am so nostalgic about "Full House" that I have created a rationale whereby in my mind, Cameron and DJ Tanner are two completely different people, and I am supporting the revival of the show without supporting her. Of course that is not true, and she will get money from me watching it, and she got money when I bought her book to get into a book signing, and she gets a syndication check every time I watch the show on cable. It is harder with team sports because it's a group of people rather than one individual, and if we take the Mets as an example, I think what venom was alluding to above is that even those fans supremely upset by what Murphy said (and it's justifiable, IMO) don't want to penalize the entire team. And maybe these very same people feel differently about, say, the Steelers being penalized as a whole for continuing to employ Ben Roethlisberger. Or maybe they feel the same. I don't think the line is consistent for everybody, and I think we all create narratives in our heads to support or not support whom and what we want.

This is essentially what I have been saying on this board for weeks/months now, dating back to at least the Matt Damon discussion. At least you have the self-awareness to acknowledge that you can make exceptions for yourself based on personal desires (or whatever).

[Above the Title]

But people still have the inner turmoil about it, which was my and venom's original point. We don't know how to feel because we are Mets fans, but we hate Murphy's "beliefs," and he has been the crux of this team in the postseason. The inner turmoil has put somewhat of a damper on their unexpected performance.

And tonight...GAME 1. LET'S GO HARVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY.

Hey, where is the poster former known as RedSox in all of this? JM, we miss you buddy!

[venom1976]

(10-27-2015 02:45 PM)pvdk Wrote:  I don't justify people's "traps" because we're at a different time where enough hand holding and enough stories are out there to steer people into a certain way of thinking. If some of the most hateful people can change their opinions and see the light, I don't see why he or many others can't. And that's without even getting into the obvious argument of the number of things he's probably done that's against his religion.

I don't think dropping him is necessarily the answer but the team and its managers need to hold him accountable in some way.

Much of this is well-said. But Murphy may well be the kind of person who does change his mind...some day. You punish him for merely stating a belief that, what, a 1/3 of people in this country hold, he's just going to dig in and be seen as a martyr to a critical mass of people, a symbol of "left-wing intolerance". But I'm all for fans giving him the cold shoulder. I wish I had the resolve to do so more thoroughly!