ATP/WTA 2?: Unchained Meldonium

[NUguy514]

(09-20-2023 06:36 AM)venom1976 Wrote:  OK...

"he man has spent his career mocking his fellow tennis players"
You mean the imitations he used to do? This always seemed in good fun...and certainly was entertaining.

"cheating in various ways on and off the court"
explain?

"defending abusive assholes like Justin Gimelstob"
Yup - not cool...but is there an example besides Gimelstob?

"espousing various dangerous conspiracy theories"
Yup - not cool.


"and promoting an authoritarian regime's bellicose claim to another country's territory and people."
Can you explain this one? (I don't doubt it, I just don't know)

Those imitations were certainly not in good fun, and never have been, but I guess mileage may vary. They left a bad taste in my mouth from the jump.

I think pretty much every tennis player probably is doping at this point, but Djoker certainly is not clean and, in my opinion, hasn't been for a while. And he absolutely tried to cheat his way into Australia two years ago, and it was so unbelievably brazen, dishonest, and loathsome. And it was cheating.

I'll tackle the other two together: Justin Gimelstob is all the abusive assholes rolled into one, but Djokovic also buddies up to war criminals in Serbia and has promoted and supported Serbia's claims on Kosovo (which is on a smaller scale but not unlike Russia's claims on Ukraine).

[misplaced validity]

I've never been a fan of Djokovic, but to me all of that is separate from whether or not he's the GOAT. I don't think there is any way to say he isn't the GOAT. He has the most majors (and has won all of them at least 3 times each which no one else has done), the most weeks at #1, the most Masters Series titles, and leads the head to head against both Nadal and Federer.

I also disagree the he lacks a mythos with his game. Ask any player about him, and they say he doesn't have a weakness, knows his body better than anyone, etc. Medvedev said his greatest achievement is beating Djokovic in a major.

If anything, Nadal and Federer fans clinging to public adoration comes across as a form of desperation in realizing they can't claim to be the GOAT. (At the same time, I do agree Djokovic is desperate for that same adoration.)

(Again, I say all of that separate from acknowledging Novaxx and his stans are shitty ass people.)

[Dr.ciski77]

(09-20-2023 12:14 PM)NUguy514 Wrote:  

(09-20-2023 06:36 AM)venom1976 Wrote:  OK...

"he man has spent his career mocking his fellow tennis players"
You mean the imitations he used to do? This always seemed in good fun...and certainly was entertaining.

"cheating in various ways on and off the court"
explain?

"defending abusive assholes like Justin Gimelstob"
Yup - not cool...but is there an example besides Gimelstob?

"espousing various dangerous conspiracy theories"
Yup - not cool.


"and promoting an authoritarian regime's bellicose claim to another country's territory and people."
Can you explain this one? (I don't doubt it, I just don't know)

Those imitations were certainly not in good fun, and never have been, but I guess mileage may vary. They left a bad taste in my mouth from the jump.

I think pretty much every tennis player probably is doping at this point, but Djoker certainly is not clean and, in my opinion, hasn't been for a while. And he absolutely tried to cheat his way into Australia two years ago, and it was so unbelievably brazen, dishonest, and loathsome. And it was cheating.

I'll tackle the other two together: Justin Gimelstob is all the abusive assholes rolled into one, but Djokovic also buddies up to war criminals in Serbia and has promoted and supported Serbia's claims on Kosovo (which is on a smaller scale but not unlike Russia's claims on Ukraine).

Yeah, I just don't think there's an angle where you could defend him or really argue that he's been good for the sport. I don't think he should be even eligible for the HoF at this point or altogether allowed to compete. Had Random Journeyman ranked #180 in the world attempted what Djokovic did in Australia two years ago, pretty much trying to cheat his way into the event with improperly obtained documentation, the ATP would have suspended/banned their asses. This is someone who admitted to exposing media and fans to COVID when he knew he had just tested positive. It's appalling to a point of almost being inconceivable. I personally do not and will never consider him part of the GOAT convo, and I think that fans and press who are just throwing his numbers at it are just kind of disingenuous and they know it (and even there, Nadal isn't far behind at all in terms of numbers and stats).

[Dr.ciski77]

Did anybody else watch the Rybakina/Andreeva match in Beijing? Andreeva was up 6/2, 4/2 hitting sliced forehands back at Rybakina who would then miss from the middle of the court by two to five feet. People in utter disbelief in the stands. THEN Andreeva went on to lose 11 of the 12 following games. One of the worst matches I've ever seen in my life. Former Wimbledon champion against the most promising 16-year-old on tour.

[venom1976]

There's a compelling case to be made that Boris Becker is the greatest indoor *carpet* player of all-time (a now essentially defunct playing surface).

He won 80% of all his matches on the surface. (McEnroe 85%, Borg 83%, Lendl 83%, Sampras 76%)
His record against the Top 5 was 44-18 - 71%. (Borg 78%, Lendl 66%, Sampras 55%..don't have for McEnroe)
His H2H with Sampras was 7-6 on the surface (he was 0-6 against him on other surfaces).
His H2H with McEnroe was 6-1 on the surface (he was 2-1 against him on other surfaces).
His H2H with Lendl was, however, just 4-7 on the surface (he was 6-4 against him on other surfaces)

Kinda wild.

[misplaced validity]

What happened to that surface? Too fast?

[Dr.ciski77]

(10-05-2023 09:57 AM)venom1976 Wrote:  There's a compelling case to be made that Boris Becker is the greatest indoor *carpet* player of all-time (a now essentially defunct playing surface).

He won 80% of all his matches on the surface. (McEnroe 85%, Borg 83%, Lendl 83%, Sampras 76%)
His record against the Top 5 was 44-18 - 71%. (Borg 78%, Lendl 66%, Sampras 55%..don't have for McEnroe)
His H2H with Sampras was 7-6 on the surface (he was 0-6 against him on other surfaces).
His H2H with McEnroe was 6-1 on the surface (he was 2-1 against him on other surfaces).
His H2H with Lendl was, however, just 4-7 on the surface (he was 6-4 against him on other surfaces)

Kinda wild.

Are the stats in parenthesis his winning percentages against those players on the surface?

[venom1976]

No, sorry, it's those players' winning percentages on the surface.

(Honestly, the case for Becker got weaker once I started looking at players other than Sampras.)

The ATP made some effort harmonize indoor playing in surfaces in the late aughts and carpet went out in favor of hard. Not sure if speed was the reason..I'd be surprised if it didn't play a factor.

[misplaced validity]

Li Na gave a GOAT winner's speech when she won in Australia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-uVsj2pJDo

I'm so glad she won 2 majors, and I love her husband here too.

[misplaced validity]

I didn't follow the ATP Finals much because I figured the GOAT would win ugh. At least Sinner got a win over him, but he didn't get it when it really counted. Is 2024 going to be more of this? I've kind of stopped watching men's tennis since it's the same result most tournaments.